I tried this new stuff called "30 minute epoxy" it looks to me to be the same stuff as the Great Planes epoxy. I have some mixed feelings about this stuff. I started using the practice flock on new glues cause I got tired of wasting good flock on lousy glue, anyway. I tried it on a Classic collection head, a walmart head and 2 vintage heads. On the CC head it held/holds the flock great...but it just peeled right off the head and left the head good and clean like it was never there. I expected the same thing on the walmart head, but it was sticking to that like crazy...I couldn't believe it. On the vintage heads...I'm letting them sit for a full 24hrs and I'll report tomorrow. I'm thinking that on the CC head it just wasn't roughed up enough to give it something to bite into...as best as I can figure. I may have to get some PVC cleaner...?
Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Aug 5, 2010 19:42:01 GMT -5
Some heads have a wax like feel to them and the epoxy just doesn't want to grab without something to bite in. I say the PVC cleaner because it's pretty cheap compared to others will soften the head just enough for the epoxy to grab on. You might want to try a little of it in the epoxy mix also because the MEK that's in the cleaner can bite into the head, the nylon flock and interlock the epoxy sort of fusing it all together. Tetrahydrofuran based would be stronger. Other primer types: SEM Plastic Prep - 38353 SEM Sand Free - 38363 Polyolefin Adhesion Promoter 05907
all of which should be tested first before using!!!! Also used safely.
Like a putz...I can't wait so I'm gonna flock more heads with the new glue and hope for the best. I just figured I'd take one for the team and try this stuff out and see how it works. Every time we go shopping I go looking for some kind of new glue to use.
OK change of heart, I checked the newly flocked heads and the hair peeled off for the most part. There were a few spots where the flock would not peel off at all. Also when scraping the flock with a metal scraping tool the flock did not come off even on the spots where the flock came off the head. It holds the flock great now if I can just get the flock to hold to the head...I'll be good to go. So off to the hardware store tomorrow to get some PVC cleaner.
Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Aug 5, 2010 22:31:21 GMT -5
I do the same, plus I do plenty of reading and research on the subject and it always comes down to cleaning, etching, and or roughening the substrate enough to hold. I do this because I want to be able to say, "hey go to "blank_hardware" and buy "blank".... it's cheap and works the same every time!"
Why because I know many are not going to spend $45 on a solvent based epoxy and solvent based primer/cleaner.
Plenty of adhesive stick fast to the head and hold the flock, but they also dry very fast so they are useless.
One thing I do know is nothing is strong enough if a person wants to get it off or tries to. Trust me I've stripped hundreds of vintage flocked and reflocked heads from every reflocker around and never had a problem getting the flock off. Even those that had tough glue that stuck to the head well- the flock still came off. It's the nature of it. Note, that sometimes too clean can be bad also. Say, you strip a vintage head and it still has some very fine bits here and there. The epoxy will lock on to those areas.
I did find another epoxy that works excellent, but it's $100 USD a pop, so again useless to the hobbyist flocker. Like I said before $100 for glue or spend that $100 on collecting- no choice there really. I'd go with the $100 on collecting every time.
Tried it again with the PVC cleaner. Now I realize that if you want to get the flock off you can pick it off if you keep at it, but this is just peeling off but only in spots. So now I'm thinking maybe it's due to the fact that I'm putting the epoxy on in the humid environment...? Maybe the head has condensation on it or something.
What I can't figure out is that when I first started flocking all I had problems with was lack of humidity the glue held great and I still have one of the first heads I ever did and the flock won't scrub off with a toothbrush under water. Now I use the same brand glue(2part epoxy) and this is happening that why I'm trying to eliminate everything that is different.
On a side note something that I was getting on the heads after they were flocked and dried was hard spots in the hair almost like air bubbles, but there were no bubbles on the head prior to the flocking. I'd use the same batch of glue and one head has it one didn't...
At any rate it is frustrating as H E double hockey sticks! I really don't mind paying extra for a good glue, but id this is what is going to keep happening what is the point is blowing the money!!!
Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Aug 6, 2010 20:54:48 GMT -5
Sorry brother I don't know what else to tell you on it. I just flocked 20 or so heads in 85% RH and didn't have an issue.
I do know the feeling of frustration though when I tried to flock an entire week this past winter when it went down to 45% RH. Even the flock I bought from various suppliers wouldn't work right.
I always thought the humidity level would only extend the work time. I don't know my work time is 3 hours set time is around 6 hours with full cure at 16 to 24 unless I put them under the heat lamp it cuts the times in half or better. When I mix mine it has to sit for 10 or 15 minute before I use it. Then I add a small amount of filler epoxy (non solvent type like in the stores or great planes type) I add this because the flock needs 10% of it to be in adhesive.
PVC clear cleaner should have bitten in, shit if you soaked the head in the stuff you could dissolve the entire head (it has Tetrahydrofuran in it- a PVC/ABS/Vinyl solvent that dissolves, but it evaporates) This I learned when I used some on a pin head and the pin head went away after a soaking and I thought I was on to something really cool, then the head went back to normal in a day or two. On the next soak I liquefied the head... lol!
Maybe rob1 has some thoughts on it. I think he uses store epoxy.
I'm still plugging away here. I'm wondering if someone is spraying something in the garage while I'm not there...like silicone lubricant or WD 40. God knows we have enough squeaky things around here. I also know the silicone spray will goof stuff up quite good. I'll have to look into that.
Traud, It sounds like the head might have been contaminated with something (oil or grease). On the vintage heads who knows what abuse was done to it. What did you use to strip the original flock? When I strip a head I soak it in hot water and scrape with a dull knife. I then clean it with anti-bacteria soap. I've never had the glue peel off the head. I use 30 minute permatex epoxy from the Hardware store. I would try wax and grease remover. I just did a head a few days ago and it was very humid. I don't think the humidity caused the problem.
Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Aug 6, 2010 23:47:29 GMT -5
You know I didn't even thing of that Rob. You may be right. Something could have promoted the plasticizers to go into over drive either past or present. My dad used to say, "don't over think a problem... most times the answer is right there in front of you."
I think many times the easiest route is the best one. I've added many things that may not really be needed on Vintage Joe because of working on lower quality type heads here and there in between the GIjOE reflocks.
Other than the EE GIjOE but it has a gummy feel to it anyway. I tried a couple of other heads I had stripped already and they seem to be holding fine.
Rob: I use the alcohol soak to get the flock off and never had problem, although after soaking the "problem heads" in I've replaced it with new just to be safe and that has seemed to work on the one head so far. I've been using LePage 2 part 60min epoxy to flock the heads with and never had much of a problem until recently. Like I said I tried different heads and they look to be doing fine.