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Post by traud on Apr 2, 2010 12:14:06 GMT -5
I've noticed with some of my flocks that when they have dried they have a thin and not a full look to them. After reading and looking around this informative site I'm going to try the humidity to see if that makes a difference. Also I will try to reverse the polarity on my make shift flock box. If any one else has had the sparse problem let me know...it's no fun being in the boat alone  |
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Apr 2, 2010 19:56:51 GMT -5
Rob could answer this for you also. See since the flock fiber is treated for electro-static finish that is pre- 1980's technology- Humidity plays a big role in the process. Long story short- I found this out by accident over this past winter. My work shop became way too cold to work in and I had to move the whole system into the house because of demand (which I didn't have last year and during the winter months I never ventured out to the workshop much until spring every year) so, I never notice the humidity issue. A buyer from Arizona emailed and said he had some troubles- I tried flocking that day (very cold out and dry heat inside around 40% humidity) Same issue. I read a study from UMass that said humidity played a big role in thick-plush flocking. I went into the bathroom and turned on the shower for a short time and presto- everything was fine again.
I later left the humidity gage in the workshop and saw that it never goes below 75% humidity and this is why I never noticed any trouble.
Rob can tell you he had trouble and wanted a head done by me to compare results. Mine was thick and his (at the time were a little thin) Now he and others get the humidity up first and have an easy time. The reason for the pre-1980's type treatment is cost. The modern chemicals are thousands of dollars, but they need less humidity. My treatment is the treatment used on the original Joes so it does work and work well, but is humidity sensitive.
Play around with different levels of R H for your area and you'll find your sweet spot range. It's just a small hurdle.
Another good question! well done!
Ray
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Post by rob1 on Apr 2, 2010 23:27:24 GMT -5
When I did my first Black Adventurer head I wasn't happy with the results. I removed all the flock and put humidity in the air. The second time it turned out perfect. You can see difference in the pictures on my projects section. Today I flocked a Land Adventurer head and tried something different. Instead of running hot water in the sink, I used a vaporizer for colds. This put steam into the air and worked even better than the water in the sink. I let it run for about 10 minutes before I started flocking. The flock really stuck into the glue as it does in Ray's movie. I would try water or the vaporizer and experiment. Do this in a small room or bathroom. Use a crappy head and Elmers glue that washes off with hot water. If you're not happy at least you can remove the glue easily and do it again til you get it right. Hope this helps.
Rob
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Post by traud on Apr 3, 2010 15:24:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies guys, it really helps out. ;D
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dollfie63
Newly Reflocked
Flock Concepts Member
Posts: 9
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Post by dollfie63 on Apr 9, 2010 20:41:40 GMT -5
Like everyone has been saying the humidity really does help the hair to fly straighter into the head. During my very first attempt the air was dry and the flock was forming chains. After reading Ray's advice about humidity I put one of those Vick's cool mist humidifiers on for an hour before I started flocking and I noticed a big difference in the way the hair flew into the head.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Apr 9, 2010 22:52:32 GMT -5
Yea, like I said I never noticed this until I had to flock over this past winter and ran into trouble because of the dry heat. Now that it's warmer here- I'm back in the workshop and with the cement floor it never goes below 75% relative humidity so it's back to normal for me. On the flip side- on very high humidity days (90's+) I run the A/C in there and it evens out. You just have to find your sweet spot. At this point as soon as I turn on the flocker I can smell when it's perfect. It's a crisp clean smell. I actually have to thank the buyer from Arizona for bringing this out because before he had a problem I couldn't figure out why a few were having trouble. Then when it happened to me... I said WTF! Why all of a sudden. Then I started to look at climate more and like I said after reading an article on flocking etc. etc.
I have to fine that article and post it. I think it was from Prof. Kim at UMass. Umass has courses in this stuff- one of which I'm going to this August. Kind of a flock information convention that lasts a weekend.
A note to Thaud. If you get better results from a hand shaker unit- don't let us push you to the tray or cabinet type. You have one up on me because I hate the shaker type and F*** it up 80% of the time. For me the cabinet type gives me the same plush results everytime, but you are skilled at the hand held, so by all means go with what works for you. One of our buyers uses a cabinet type, but he hands the head inside between the electrode ball and the ground, but he has added a small fan that lightly blows the flock around in the charge field before it sticks into the glue. HE swears by it. His results are very similar to a club hair flocking- the flock sticks out, but not packed tight like say- Robs are, but still super looking.
Some things just have to be worked out for your area of the world. Even the commercial flocks I've bought act funny under different climate conditions. My treatment was used in Hong Kong in the 70's so it would figure it works best in a more humid area- I assume it was humid there. It's just the nature of flocking. When you research statics it's a fine line between static charge strength and humidity. Though the static charge is greater in less humid conditions- this stronger charge will do little to promote jump of the flock fiber. A balance between humidity and static charge is key. You could pump 3 million volts out in 20% humidity and the flock will sit there. Add higher humidity and at that voltage the flock might pierce your hand or embed in wood.
IF you read some of Tesla's work you can see the powerful things that are possible through electro-static and electro-magnetic fields.
Watch out you may end up like me and get too involved in all this...lol! Strange I would watch Zane's video and try that shaker type and fail over and over and say, "Why doesn't this frigging work?" I would shake out a pound of flock (on the floor I might add, wasting it.) and end up with a hack job flocking.
Now I get emails from some that say, "how do you get it to work like that?"
My teacher would say, "Get rid of that pepper shaker!" I'm not an elitist like him.
I say, "if it works for you (what-ever method) use it. Who knows someone may invent an even better method and make us all say,"damn, I never thought of that!"
It just comes down to- many of the shaker people will say the cabinet/ tray people are doing it wrong and vice/versa, but whatever works for you works.
Just find work zone and you should be fine. I've done 100+ heads on one Sunday using the same flock I sell and the same unit(s) I show in the video (well I use 3 now, but the same style) so it's just finding your work zone.
Ray
A little information video I thought was cool!
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Post by traud on Apr 13, 2010 8:54:14 GMT -5
After some investigative work and rethinking the situation. I figured out my problem. Back when I first started flocking I read somewhere that humidity can cause a problem...so I figured that it was just to humid in the garage. So I placed those moisture absorbers you get in pill bottles into my flock containers...but only certain colors cause that was all I had. As it turns out the colors that had them I had the problems with sparse looking flocking. Now that got me thinking if those could dry them out what if you used a humidor( I think is what they are called) to keep the air humid or moist inside the flock container? I remember my Dad using them in his pipe tobacco containers to keep the tobacco from drying out....so why not in the flock?  |
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Apr 13, 2010 17:05:13 GMT -5
It should work and even if it kept it a little too moist the flock would naturally dry more the longer it’s left in the air. The reason for the treatment is because unlike Rayon- Nylon repels water and is naturally static charged, but that’s is not good when you’re flocking because if the flock is already charged and the flock unit is trying to charge flock that’s already charged they will equal out and not move. Moisture disrupts the whole process of static, but is needed for that very reason. The negative charge would otherwise not repel the flock. SO too much moisture in the air does decrease the negative static charge, but not enough moisture in the air and the flock will not jump. So it’s a balance. The flock is treated to soak up some moisture and become neutral waiting for the Neg. Ion charge to line it up. Nylon would naturally be negative charged, but may or may not line up correctly so flock is treated with various finishes- 1 to add a metal (in the form of a salt or Sulphate) and 2 to hold a degree of moisture that is not native to nylon fiber. Penetrative chemicals not unlike hair care products are used to break the surface tension so the metals can adhere. Metals are conductive, but lose their charge quickly and that’s what is needed in flocking.
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Post by traud on Apr 14, 2010 18:44:00 GMT -5
I tried a variation of the "humidor" I moistened a folded up piece of paper towel and place it on top of some wire mesh inside my LA flock tub. Left it for a day and a half....took it out shook up the flock, and it went clumpy...not a problem I jsut used the flockers friend "a sifter" gave it a sift and the flock attacked the head when I went to flock it. It was unbelievable, I've never seen it flock like that before, it acrually Flocked to the head. It almost went on too fast, but it gave a nice full head of hair.
At this point it must be said that this worked for me in the relative humidity of my garage. Others may have limited or the same success using this technique.
If anybody else tries this let me know how it worked out for you. I'm interested in knowing if it works for others.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Apr 14, 2010 21:31:37 GMT -5
Now you see the potential. When they flock blankets, for example, they keep a strict control on humidity for the best pile and plush. It’s a fine line of just enough for the flock to jump, but not too much that it over comes the static charge. Down the line you’ll get that result as second nature. At this point I can tell by the feel of the flock during sifting into my cabinet and a quick switch on- I can smell when it’s right.
Now on a water-based adhesive the moisture needs to be even less or you’ll end up with “felting” I have an example posted around here of that. Felting would be a good thing if you were making tennis balls which are felted then rolled and heat set (from a video I’ve watched).
Anyway- Excellent, keep working to find your niche for your workspace. Like Rob said- you can get that result with a humidifier running also. I've found that with my exhaust fan running (for adhesive fumes) the moisture doesn't build up too much, but is enough for excellent flock pile. On the reverse side an A/C will work for wet conditions. I have a wooden box (3 feet X 4 Feet) with a lid on the top and a cutout end that a small window A/C sits in- for the days in the summer that are 90 degrees and 100% humidity. I'll sit the flock in there if it feels clumpy moist and use it after an 45 minutes or so.
I am getting ready to do some very short flock fiber flocking on some Mego figures. I’ll post the pics if I can fit them into my flocking schedule of the next few days. I also ordered various lengths to try out different custom looks.
Ray
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Post by Carl on May 18, 2010 5:52:41 GMT -5
;D Humidity is king. My meter says 76 hum and I've got this down. I'm going to get some epoxy glue and do some gijoe heads when I win some on ebay.
thank you for the intel it helped out plenty.
Carl B.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on May 19, 2010 11:03:51 GMT -5
Excellent! Once you get the epoxy and vintage heads you'll be hooked into it.
The right humidity is just part of it- like not painting the house in the rain.
Finding your sweet spot for flocking just comes with the whole process.
I have an idea for my flock station where I will partially enclose it with a port for an A/C and a port for a humidifier. I just need to find the right table with enough strength and room to hook everything up. I need to condense every operation into a finely tune production area. This is my next project. I had to refuse an interview in my work shop because it's just not ready for the world to see. As it stands the only area that is orderly is where I do the re-flocking (flock recovery is important along with keeping track of orders.). The area where I make the flock is jammed right now.
The ebay kits are going end soon and I will only put 1 or 2 up as needed for those skittish about ordering through this site.
The bottom line is just not there to keep ebay sales going. It Sux!
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Post by iyujamulifoi on May 5, 2019 21:37:33 GMT -5
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Post by osocara on May 5, 2019 23:25:02 GMT -5
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