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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Sept 27, 2009 13:31:28 GMT -5
Vintage glue removal!
Vintage flock removes easily by soaking the head in a cup with ¾ alcohol ¼ water (warm mix works better) [denatured alcohol is best] Also works on reflocked heads, but after the first soak use your thumb nail and depending on the adhesive used you can either peel the whole reflock off at once or in bits at a time. The firmer the glue the better it is to pick it off clean if you roll the head around in your hands or on a table like you would to open a hard boiled egg. This will crack the glue and release it from the soft vinyl head. Some are tougher than others, but they all come off either with time or effort. It's just the nature of vinyl
Feel you have a better solution? Just post it here and help out your fellow collectors!
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Post by traud on Mar 20, 2010 12:45:47 GMT -5
I myself, use alcohol. A fella on the one board I frequent has a friend that uses bleach to get his flock off. He states that it removes the flock doesn't hurt the head at all and removes the "5 O'clock" glue shadow as well. I've never tested this myself ..but if some brave soul here would like to..I'd really like to see if this works.
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herrkamel
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Post by herrkamel on Sept 5, 2010 15:19:09 GMT -5
Greetings it's Kamel the Brave Soul ! Thought i'd give the bleach a little test on a old Action Man I have. I wanted to see if I could remove part of the beard but keep his moustache, plus leave his sideburns alittle longer for a more 1970's look. So out comes the Jeyes Parozone Bleach and on with mission "Bleached Beared". Well it didn't go to bad, only armed with the bleach, a clothes peg and a tiny brush ( I read somewhere that someone used a lolly pop stick or Popsicle stick in the US to remove the flock, so as I had no sticks I used a wooden clothes peg ). So I applyed the bleach with the brush left it on for 15 mins then went to work with my clothes peg. I found i needed to do this twice to get all the flock off but still found it did leave a "5 O'clock glue shadow". I'm still happy with how it turned out and the head had a crack at the back anyway, but I can say hand on heart it did not remove the 5 O'clock shadow for me. My figure is a 70's English Action Man and not a G.I. Joe if that may of made any difference. Over and Out ;D
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Sept 7, 2010 0:56:04 GMT -5
Excellent testing (and brave even with a damaged head). From the picture he sure looks like an excellent patch candidate with the flock removed evenly like that.
There have been times that I'll get a head in the mail with some white blotches and I've assumed that they were from bleach or oven cleaner flock removal, but I do not see any of that in your test, so the oven cleaner may be the culprit.
The denatured alcohol is still my favorite way to remove the old flock and it works on 99% of the heads in about 20 to 30 minutes.
The only side effect I've seen is if the figure has had some acrylic paint touch ups over the years. The acrylic painted areas may come off or soften.
Some heads (most early flocked heads), these may or may not have painted hair underneath seem to have a tough adhesive- that I suspect had a strong solvent action because the flock just doesn't want to come off without plenty of hard work. I say early heads because most of the heads like this so far have had painted hair under the flocking. The only reason that some of these needed reflocking (from what I've seen) is because of poor factory glue up (misses). These missed spots may have been hard to control because many adhesives can trap air or dimple if applied too quickly (which we can suspect was the case on a production line).
The easiest to remove are KFG (kung fu grip) and EE's (eagle eyes) I make a note of some of the terms we tend to use only because I do get questions about things like, "what do you mean when you say, LA, SA, AA, KFG, etc.?"
Many of us use these short cut terms and don't realize others may not know what they are. an example is, I emailed someone with a question... "You asked for yellow hair & beard... do you mean AA style (air adventurer) or a custom color of solid yellow?" The reply was, "what's a AA style? African American (AF/AM)?"
I then had to explain the terms I use and that AF/AM is not Air Force Action Man, but african american. I may have to post a list of terms I tend to use, but I have seen these posted many times over the years and always felt it's not needed.
It's funny because my original ebay listing was about 4 sentences and now it's a book of information (that doesn't get read most times) because many just do not have time to click links and or sit and read the whole darn thing. This is understandable because shit, people just want new hair on their Joe's and not a course on terms or reflocking... lol!
I digress!
Anyway great test/tutorial/information. I think most of the various methods used to remove old flock stem from what happens to be around the house at the time.
At times when cleaning off vintage flock I know I say, "Jeez, if the rest of the flock was this tough to get off I wouldn't have to reflock the head in the first place."
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jan 25, 2011 9:39:38 GMT -5
Another reflocker that uses bleach with great results messaged me.
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Post by traud on Feb 13, 2011 0:41:09 GMT -5
4 days seems to be a bit of a wait to get your head cleaned, but if it makes it all pink and new...maybe you don't even need to prep the head for flocking...? Hmmmm...
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cfc1at
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Post by cfc1at on Jun 17, 2011 9:02:43 GMT -5
Ray, I noticed when stripping my heads preparing to send them to you that some came off really easy, just peeled as mentioned above (These were my Canadian AT Joe's) and others are harder and even when done have dark glue areas that are not perfectly smooth. Will this affect the New Flock at all?
Also, for Talking Commanders, was their Flock not more Black than the Standard Land Adventurer in some cases?
Thanks! Chris
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jun 19, 2011 0:46:50 GMT -5
Yes some vintage heads are very tough. Some are near impossible. I just had one last night that stropped of almost completely in one piece. On the colors- It's a complete toss up from production run to production run. I've opened muscle body figures with dark purplish tones and other that have a ton of bright yellow highlights. Same goes for talkers and Land Adventurers, also the MOA. It seems the more I work out a new tone to match a patch job, someone sends me another odd take on the same color. A steady client Joseph just donated a head to me that has a heavy orange highlight to it. This all leads me to believe what many have stated here on the forum- "that the mixes were as random at times as the beard lines". It has taken thousands and thousands of heads to concede to this . See, it was hard for me because I believe in having a method to my madness and randomness (if that's a word) just doesn't fit my theories. I like to think that they at Hasbro were so involved in GIjOE that they worked out every detail, but I'm starting to accept the fact that some things (like vintage flock) were random. Once Joe Iazzetta said to me, "they mixed up what ever they had on hand", and he was right, but I also have to take into account my teacher who had been restoring flock since the 80's for private collectors and resellers so some of what's floating around may not be a Hasbro flock at all, but an old reflock made to look vintage. You have to remember late 80's and 90's (pre ebay) were very high for MIB Joes. It was common to pay $200 for a complete loose AT Joe. If I knew how to do this back then I too may have kept a lid on it and just resold Joes. Ray
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Post by rob1 on Jun 19, 2011 13:31:22 GMT -5
Ray is right on about the glue. I too have had glue that came off in one shot and then some that I've had to chisel off. I think Hasbro used whatever glue they had on hand that worked.
I also think Hasbro had hair mixes that varied depending on what employee mixed it or applied it. Same with the beard lines. I know if I worked at Hasbro at that time I would be playing around with the colors and the beard lines.
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cfc1at
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Post by cfc1at on Jul 12, 2011 8:49:08 GMT -5
Thanks Guys! Trying to get some heads out this week!
Chris
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jul 12, 2011 21:50:22 GMT -5
No worries- We strip the hair off now. I've decided to do this because some have been really ripping their heads apart because they opt not to use the Denatured Alcohol. It just adds an extra day of soaking on this end. Besides 80% of the pre-stripped heads still have to be soaked to remove the old flock completely. Stray clumps can make issues if reflocked over.
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handy
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Post by handy on Jan 23, 2013 10:02:49 GMT -5
Another reflocker that uses bleach with great results messaged me. Here's what bleach did: It did not get off the hard to remove flock, and it damaged the red pigment on the lips and scar of both heads. The printing is still there, but the red color is gone from it. That took 2 days. Let's all please stop using bleach or telling others to do it. It is not safe on vintage heads.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jan 25, 2013 2:42:44 GMT -5
I think any advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt. What may work for one guy may not work for another. I use the Denatured alcohol, but it's just an 8th of an inch worth. Some have told me they used the 3/4 cup because of my first post, but that's the ratio. The only issue is repaints will wash off or bleed as will repaints done with felt markers. The best bet with these would be hot water and elbow grease for a few hours. Vintage paint (USA Joes) is made of different stuff.
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handy
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Post by handy on Jan 25, 2013 9:50:40 GMT -5
Ray, I know I was taking a risk trying the bleach, and don't blame anyone for it damaging the vintage lips. I posted to warn people that bleach may not dissolve the factory face markings, but it can change their color. Isopropyl or denatured alcohol aren't substances known for altering pigments like bleach or peroxide, so they should be much safer bets. And I wasn't even using straight bleach - it was mixed with water. There may be some combination of time, vessel, temperature, etc that would make bleach safer, but I don't think there are enough vintage heads left out there that experimenting on them and ruining more is okay. Bleach is only slightly better as a solvent than alcohol, and it still wasn't up to removing the tough stuff on the paint head. It is not a safe solvent for de-flocking. I think any advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt. What may work for one guy may not work for another. I use the Denatured alcohol, but it's just an 8th of an inch worth. Some have told me they used the 3/4 cup because of my first post, but that's the ratio. The only issue is repaints will wash off or bleed as will repaints done with felt markers. The best bet with these would be hot water and elbow grease for a few hours. Vintage paint (USA Joes) is made of different stuff.
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Post by dmwgreywolf on May 8, 2014 10:10:40 GMT -5
A car paint guy here. Old post but just in case anyone is listening. I dropped a head in laquer thinner for a half hour, pulled it out, scraped off the gooey mess of melted hair and glue with my thumbnail, brushed the head lightly with a soft wire brush, and its a new head again with a faint tint of where hair was. ready to apply glue.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on May 11, 2014 9:57:44 GMT -5
I think the main worry is vintage paint coming off with the old fibers. I strip about 20 to 30 per day most weeks and have used walmart 91% alcohol for the past year (mainly because of cost), and I barely use an 8th of an inch in a bathroom type plastic cup for each head. The alcohol just touches the top of each head, but is soaked up by the old rayon fibers. After a few hours up to 8 hours it comes off pretty easy. Vintage paint is immune to the alcohol, but repaints (even touch ups done back in the 70's) are not. I do test swab each head in search for repaint, marker, or pen because these will bleed into the head with the alcohol. I attempt this test to prevent bleeding, but sometime it happens with repaints, marker, or pen and if it does you can't clean it off. As always I suggest that the collector strip these types of heads themselves to avoid any issues because if it happens here it's out of my control. Heck, my task is to put new fibers on these heads and not to spend all my time investigating what some kid did back in the 70's with a magic marker or some acrylic paints on soft vinyl. I'm not a restoration guy- I'm a flock guy. Many others do full restorations for a great price for those who need this type of work. I just put flock fiber to head and that's all. For some this is not what is needed for others it's all they need. It's pretty cut and dry. Overall, with a good soak you should expect to spend 10 or more minutes cleaning off each head.
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Post by oldjoe on May 20, 2014 17:43:13 GMT -5
I like the idea of letting the heads soak the alcohol up via wicking rather than submerging the heads. I used to soak mine submerged in isopropyl alcohol for 24-48 hours. The hair came off pretty easily with a blunt plastic scraper but it did discolor the scar and lips on some of the heads.
Just my $.02
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Post by dmwgreywolf on Dec 30, 2014 9:59:33 GMT -5
ahhhhh.... wicking.. ok
I just saw up this thread where you, Ray, were talking about the variations in color and beard layout. I find this quite understandable having worked in a number of production factories and having built my own flocking device. Im sure you know Ray, but for others that might not know, the fibers become charged and some stick to the flocking cabinet/device surfaces making a pure cleanup a difficult job. In the world of factories its all about speed so these extensive cleanings are not practical. Lets say there is a production line running blonde moa heads. They had an order to run 1200 heads. They finish the order and the next order is for 2000 brown moa. Whoever was running the setup would dump out the fiber bin, thump it on the bottom a few times, and dump in a scoop of brown fibers. There is the reason for unlimited variations. It wasn't that there was a formula or mix ratio to make the different colors. It all depended on how many thumps the person gave the bin, if they wiped the hairs from inside, or maybe the fiber guy was havin a bad day and just said flock it. It takes to long to remove all the fibers in an assembly line world. As far as variations in beard form, lets look at it for what it was, sweat shops. Thats why U.S. companies took the work over seas, cheap prices in sweat shops. Its not a politically correct topic so people dont seem to want to acknowledge it, but it was the world back then. So you had 16 little orientals in a closet swapping glue on these suckers. The new girls who still had pride in thier spirits would try to go good jobs and make theirs look better than the others they were working with, in hopes of scoring a better job. But after 6 months on no wages and hungry and being beat they would just try to make as many as they could, as fast as they could, so they wouldnt get beat or would get fed. So these are my educated guesses or theories. Just other ideas to consider.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jan 5, 2015 12:55:51 GMT -5
ahhhhh.... wicking.. ok I just saw up this thread where you, Ray, were talking about the variations in color and beard layout. I find this quite understandable having worked in a number of production factories and having built my own flocking device. Im sure you know Ray, but for others that might not know, the fibers become charged and some stick to the flocking cabinet/device surfaces making a pure cleanup a difficult job. In the world of factories its all about speed so these extensive cleanings are not practical. Lets say there is a production line running blonde moa heads. They had an order to run 1200 heads. They finish the order and the next order is for 2000 brown moa. Whoever was running the setup would dump out the fiber bin, thump it on the bottom a few times, and dump in a scoop of brown fibers. There is the reason for unlimited variations. It wasn't that there was a formula or mix ratio to make the different colors. It all depended on how many thumps the person gave the bin, if they wiped the hairs from inside, or maybe the fiber guy was havin a bad day and just said flock it. It takes to long to remove all the fibers in an assembly line world. As far as variations in beard form, lets look at it for what it was, sweat shops. Thats why U.S. companies took the work over seas, cheap prices in sweat shops. Its not a politically correct topic so people dont seem to want to acknowledge it, but it was the world back then. So you had 16 little orientals in a closet swapping glue on these suckers. The new girls who still had pride in thier spirits would try to go good jobs and make theirs look better than the others they were working with, in hopes of scoring a better job. But after 6 months on no wages and hungry and being beat they would just try to make as many as they could, as fast as they could, so they wouldnt get beat or would get fed. So these are my educated guesses or theories. Just other ideas to consider. I do believe you are correct because it happens here. After a run of one color mix. Time (meaning glue pot life) doesn't always allow for a good vacuum clean out so there is some mixing of colors from run to run. This is why after studying the vintage black mix through a jeweler's loop and seeing that it wasn't pure black I began to add a dash of other colors to copy the dirty machine effect. In the end I do not worry about this mixing because it does make for a even more vintage look. The only time I really vacuum everything good these days is when working with white and even at that the white fibers arrive here with a few random colors in there. Not bad enough to spoil the overall look, but if you look good enough they are there. It's just the nature of it all. Actually I believe that many want there heads done too neat. I think they tend to look better just following the old glue stain. I do notice that on the early vintage heads they would push the hair down. On these heads you can remove the old flock in practically one piece. At times I've donated these wig pieces to collectors so they could do a little patch on an other wise solid head.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jan 10, 2015 7:41:41 GMT -5
As an after thought- I was told that they also had to do a glue up in 5 strokes using 2 brush sizes, so you can see how after hours of work things could get sloppy. I glue them up pretty quick, but never could get it done under 7-8 strokes with 3 brush sizes.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jan 10, 2015 7:49:34 GMT -5
Also I love the fact that my system for removal has changed since my first post. It shows the progression and learning curve over time. I think it's good to leave most of the contradicting posts so others can see how over the years things get refined either because of costs or by learning a better way.
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gsnail
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Post by gsnail on Jul 24, 2015 0:59:44 GMT -5
It seems to me, even though I am not working with Joes but another flocked vinyl toy, that the bleach breaks up the fibers, and the alcohol dissolves the glue. So what I do is a short soak in bleach water, a wipe and rinse, then a short soak in alcohol water, and the remaining glue wipes off, and the bleach did not have time to affect the paint. And since the bleach removed the depth of the fibers, the alcohol can more easily penetrate the glue.
Of course, you may have tried this already and it doesn't work on Joe heads, but I thought it might be worth mentioning, since it cut down on time in my experience.
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stevebal4
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Post by stevebal4 on May 24, 2017 18:09:37 GMT -5
New kid on the block here. Read thru 90% of this lengthy and informative thread and I was wondering how effective or safe using acetone (nail polish remover) might be. I'm not looking to soak the head, just remove the scalp flocking and leave the beard.
I just picked up this poor Joe for $10 (wish I could post pics) and he's got one of the worst cases of mange I've ever come across; either very unloved or over-enjoyed but needs some TLC and a nice makeover.
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Post by OJI-Doc on May 24, 2017 18:20:00 GMT -5
Selective stripping never really works out and acetone really is not friendly with 50 year old vinyl. Best to strip it all off and give him a fresh makeover... Doc New kid on the block here. Read thru 90% of this lengthy and informative thread and I was wondering how effective or safe using acetone (nail polish remover) might be. I'm not looking to soak the head, just remove the scalp flocking and leave the beard. I just picked up this poor Joe for $10 (wish I could post pics) and he's got one of the worst cases of mange I've ever come across; either very unloved or over-enjoyed but needs some TLC and a nice makeover.
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stevebal4
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Post by stevebal4 on May 24, 2017 18:50:46 GMT -5
Ok, thanks. I thought acetone might be too harsh. Fingers crossed...
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Post by OJI-Doc on May 25, 2017 9:08:14 GMT -5
Ok, thanks. I thought acetone might be too harsh. Fingers crossed... Honestly I would just leave it to Ray. He is by far the best GIjOE flocking Artist to ever have offered up this service. He's fast, accurate, and very affordable. So why even mess with it yourself? Want something custom?.. He's already been there and done that. I retired my flocking station many, many years ago and I am very thankful that Ray is out there helping the GIjOE community restore their Joe's. Enjoy!..OJI-Doc
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stevebal4
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Post by stevebal4 on May 27, 2017 23:37:46 GMT -5
So I gave it a go: First I removed 90% of the old flocking and lint with a really good set of tweezers (took a good 20 min). I got the rest off by using a 15 minute rubbing alcohol soak and then firmly but gently scraping the residue off with a disposable plastic spoon.
As I had only soaked the head up to the forehead I was able to keep the beard, which was quite full, intact. The head had glue staining of a light orangish colour. I then carefully sliced off the molded hairstyle that was underneath with an exact knife, small, thin pieces mind you. Finally I used a dremel with a fine sanding piece to smooth out the cuts and remove most of the staining.
I wanted him bald so it worked out great. When it comes to the flocking with other figures I will definitely send them to Ray though. Thanks for the advice!
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on May 29, 2017 10:32:24 GMT -5
Awesome! At the beginning I did a few customs that also modified the head sculpt, but I ran into a few heads that looked and felt nice and solid. They weren't because of hidden air bubbles and basically ended up a mess so from then on I stopped such mods offered as a service, but I'm happy to see it work out great for other collectors. Good stuff!!!
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Post by vanceman13 on Jul 19, 2018 19:22:24 GMT -5
This method is safe for their paint yes?
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