drkne
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Post by drkne on Oct 25, 2012 16:50:13 GMT -5
That totally hadn't occurred to me! I've just been using silicone the whole time. I have been wanting to test how the fiber stick in various viscosities and layers of thickness too though so it is something I needed to do sooner or later.
You know, even this short flock, I can't get it to work again after having used it for a certain amount of time. And fibers that I scoop back up won't work again either. Any idea why that would be and what I could do about it?
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Oct 26, 2012 22:58:53 GMT -5
Today's experiment... ug, it looked so good at first, but then after the initial brushing and then after the pictures, I rubbed the wig more to see how tight the fibers were (I always do this) and turns out most of the fibers could be pulled out Maybe I actually went too thin on the adhesive layer this time... Tomorrow I'm going to try the longer untreated fibers again just to see how they act with this set up. With today's wig though, I like how the fibers look all directed outwards from the center. Here's some shots:
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Oct 30, 2012 11:05:52 GMT -5
So, now you know that the device you are using has enough power to flock and you also know that you can flock. Your next project is to find an adhesive that holds the fibers. I had posted somewhere in this forum about adhesives that will stick to nylon perfect, but not to nylon fibers standing on end. This may be because of shrinkage. Some adhesives shrink as they dry so they don't grab. Picture putting a fence pole in a freshly dug hole- fill it tight, but then wiggle it. Now the pole is loose.
Nice pattern.
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Oct 30, 2012 11:30:04 GMT -5
Yep, not just something that will hold the fibers, but something that will also stick to the silicone.
I got a huge disappointment yesterday when I received the samples from Don Jer. They were extremely fine which I think was a problem, but they arrived in small packs tightly clumped so I spent like an hour pulling the fibers apart only to have them tightly bunch up again after only 2 shakes of my flocker :/
I tried only using a pinch of fibers and tried using all the lengths, but the same thing keeps happening. Just one or 2 shakes and the fibers cling together into a tight ball.
Even if I can get them to work, I think I might prefer thicker fibers so I wrote back to them again to ask them if they have different thicknesses, but I also wrote to Cellusuede since they have a larger variety of types and thicknesses.
Any idea why the clumping is happening with brand new never used fibers?
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Nov 1, 2012 20:31:32 GMT -5
Judging by you trouble of reusing fibers it may be too dry. Flock needs a sweet spot of steady humidity to work right. Too much and the fibers will weigh down and not work. Too little and they will become charged and tightly hold together. You'll need a small dollar store mesh sifter to sift the flock from time to time. It helps in two ways. One, it separates the fibers and two, it can neutralize any static charge built up. Remember to keep fibers sealed when not in use or else they will lose needed moister or gain extra moisture from the air. when I used to do the flocking in the house I had to run a humidifier. In the garage/workshop I run a dehumidifier once and a while in fall/spring/summer. In the winter with heat I have to run a humidifier. Just to keep things the same all the time. This is why I built a small 8 ft square flocking booth. This way I can control a small area all the time. More stuff to add to the flocking list. You see how it continues to build up on you. The work is looking better and better. It's tough to compare your set up with what Donjer uses for their flocking work. Their knowledge will be based on top of the line commercial equipment. standard practice would be to have at least a 70kV unit. This will have the power to overcome small climate changes. 70kV is basically overkill, but it's the standard of most flocking training (well 50kV to 70). I look at it like this- you can move your stuff with a pickup truck or a larger straight-job. The pickup will be great for smaller things or if you can make a bunch of trips, but a large straight-job will move everything at once. This is why I say to work your way up on fiber size. This way your flocking skill won't be an issue anymore, only what type of unit or setup you'll need.
I've had failures on some items, but I know from the start the trouble is not my flocking skill. This leads me to checking climate, the substrate, adhesive, or fibers. Then I have to weigh the cost to change things around verses the return. standard practice is to charge a flat fee then a price per unit. The flat fee (a few hundred dollars) gets the ball rolling on setup time for flocking your piece(s). Then the price per piece kicks in. What I'm trying to say is, in the end will it cost more to do than the piece is worth? Say it costs someone $30 to flock a tee-shirt- it's not worth it unless you can sell it for $50+. It's funny, I once had a thought about flocking full size wigs by making a giant version of the box unit I use for GIjOE heads. I imagined using two stainless steel or copper bowls welded/soldered together to make a huge electrode....
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Nov 3, 2012 21:28:45 GMT -5
cool, more stuff to add to my to-do list. ug, why do people not like to respond to emails? I'm waiting for Jill at Don Jer again, asked about sending her some samples to see how a 70kv unit flocks longer fibers to them. Waiting for answers from another company too.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Nov 4, 2012 0:34:35 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure there's a fee of a couple hundred bucks before they will turn on their machine.
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Nov 4, 2012 10:01:06 GMT -5
A COUPLE hundred?! Geez, I might as well just buy a machine outright! John Maxson from Cellusuede told me that Jill will do samples, but he didn't tell how much. I was looking into renting a unit too, but the only place i could find is in Canada, so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't rent to me here in Maryland It would have been $157 a week or something like that, but still better than buying a $900 or $1,350 machine that I'm not sure will do what I need it to do.
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Nov 8, 2012 22:04:12 GMT -5
Jill said she charges a flat $100 fee for flocking samples, so not too bad. I'm sending her 3 silicone and 3 plastic caps to test on.
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Jan 17, 2013 22:46:38 GMT -5
Jill never did flock the samples I sent her back then, and at this point I've asked for her to just send them back to me :/ She apologized and said she would send them Monday, but I haven't heard from her since then.
I sent messages to several Chinese and Indian electrostaic flocking machine makers and only one of them bothered to write back, but when I asked additional questions, again, no reply! What the heck? Why does no one in the flocking field want to do business?
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jan 18, 2013 13:53:14 GMT -5
No they all make too much on big clients. Jill is about the only one that will talk flocking, but as with any business time is money and without a nice chunk of change you will only get the quickest answers. As far as the big flock fiber companies- Most are so invested in giant world wide companies that they can do without the smaller people or hobbyist.
Drop 5 to 10 grand on one of them and they are all ears to a point, but even then it'll only hold so much weight because many of them deal in big dollars. Their small orders are like 10,000 pounds of fibers. It may be that your samples were not worth the effort in the big picture (time, cost, verses return). At least with Donjer you get an ear and a chance to buy smaller amounts of fibers. I can't say that for too many more suppliers in the industry if any.
I have a few guys that want 6 to 8 mm flock on their figures, but the numbers just do not work out so I send them towards Flocktastic in the UK where longer fibers are cheaper and easier to find. You may want to seek them out as well and see if they can do your samples with the longer fibers if they have the time. They are also members here. Other members that may want to take a shot at it are Rug Rats. I know Don has done flocking on larger heads that he had at a show. Again if he has the time to spend on it and at what cost I couldn't guess.
I would attempt it, but at this point I can't take the time to rearrange my whole system to do it. Hell, I have a project right now that's taking forever with 20 or so steps each piece and each step takes a day to cure. When it's finished I know I will have to recalculate the fee for something like it in the future which will probably mean no more flocking jobs like it because of the price.
I do feel your pain because I've been there. I found an old to do list in a notebook from the 90's and on it was learn to reflock GIjOE with a side note of $5000+ for the electro-static flocking machine. That was why this project was put on the back burner for so long.
Best of luck
Ray
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Jan 18, 2013 16:41:25 GMT -5
I actually found it easier to get answers from John Maxson when I email him. Jill doesn't always answer when I write her. She says it's better to try to catch her by phone, but I was always more partial to email since I ask a lot of questions. *sigh* yeah it does suck that you have to do big business to get them to talk to you... even if this venture became successful enough for me to make it a small business I probably still wouldn't be considered a major client. If they aren't going to respond to people, I wish they would at least post the specs of the equipment on their sale pages. But then I feel pretty apprehensive about buying a machine from a company that won't even answer an email anyway... Since I couldn't get any answers, I was considering taking a chance and trying to buy this machine from China since it has 100KV written on it: item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.98.AaYsa7&id=15317569436I'd have to buy through an agent but I don't think it would cost me more than $400 shipped.
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Post by Ray (Flock Man) on Jan 24, 2013 20:19:32 GMT -5
Oh yeah, you have the bug now. Now you project will become a mission.
That's an awesome unit for an awesome price. Find out the import duties also. They can sneak up on you and the bill comes in about a month later.
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drkne
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Post by drkne on Feb 6, 2013 14:32:59 GMT -5
*sigh* yeah, I've definitely been bitten lol. Especially after searching more and finding no other viable alternative for the effects I want to achieve.
I think I'll wait till spring to buy a unit though since most of the materials I'd be testing with need ventilation and warm temps so has to be at least 70 outside.
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redfred1
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Post by redfred1 on Mar 8, 2021 18:51:13 GMT -5
This is a great old thread... very informative! It is interesting to see the effort (s)he invested to get work that can be fairly easily accomplished today with an inexpensive flocker and the right flock and glue!
FredD
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